Blueprints for Success: Strategies for EHS Practitioners

Hilary Framke:

Good morning listeners. I am your host, Hilary Framke on the Elevate EHS podcast. I’m here joined by Lev Pobirsky. Hi, Lev. Thanks so much for being willing to come on the podcast today.

Lev Pobirsky:

Certainly.

Hilary Framke:

Alright, let’s get into it. I always like to start with, tell me your EHS story. How’d you find it? Why do you stay?

Lev Pobirsky:

My EHS story is a circuitous one. I was a military officer for some time out of college and I thought it would be for a longer time, but it wasn’t a longer time or as long as I initially thought.

And then I just got into safety accidentally. Like I think a lot of folks did. Why have I stayed? There’s a parallel between again, what I came up with doing the military and what we try to do in EHS, which is making sure folks, return home as it were in the same condition they came to work maybe even you know a little bit better.

Hilary Framke:

Awesome. Like over the course of your career, how have you seen the EHS industry evolve over that time? Any notable shifts, trends that you feel like have impacted us?

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah, I don’t know if it’s evolved a tremendous amount. I think kind of everything old is new again or vice versa. It seems like it’s the same kind of cycle and things get important when they’re perceived as important and then they fall off and we forget about them and we keep up this never ending full court press of trying to convince folks that it’s important, it’s worthwhile, it’s worth spending time, money and energy on.

And that’s the struggles, or I suppose the job security of the EHS professional, but I can’t say, again, not that I’ve been doing this for 50 or 60 years, but long enough, I think. I haven’t seen a tremendous shift.

Obviously, PPE is getting better and technology, namely AI, is giving us some more predictive analytics to focus on things that we probably already knew need focusing, but now we just have confirmation.

But some drug testing things and nuances and different legislation, but I think like on the whole, there hasn’t been a seismic shift where, you know, safety professional from 20 years ago, if you put him or her in the same spot today, back to the future style that they would be blown away at what’s become.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that. We still need a lot of growth. We still need a lot of maturity. I see the other functions running past us in the marathon and really improving themselves and integrating technology and moving at such a pace with the world.

And I still feel and hear about many EHS leaders who are still doing most of their activities on paper, chasing around administrative task after administrative task. In a bunch of meetings they don’t need to be in so I tend to agree with you.

Do you have any insights as to why that might be the case, why we haven’t grown with the times?

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah I have some suspicions. I think it’s certainly, and maybe we’ll talk about it in a few minutes. I think there’s some shortcomings generally in the profession regarding what we bring to the table and sometimes we don’t do ourselves any favors. There’s a lot of unforced errors that we commit.

And then we’re upset that people don’t take it seriously or take EHS with the gravity it deserves. I think we’ve had a lot of trouble aligning on metrics that can be universal and if operations leader goes from company to company, organization to organization, he or she generally finds the same ones, but not in EHS, right?

So HR has turnover. They’ve got some other metrics to have, whatever, right? Operations obviously has various efficiencies. Whether you’re making widgets or you’re storing them or moving them. On time delivery, whatever, like they’re pretty universal. EHS there’s some sort of like injury metric, whatever that is, TRIR or whatever, right? And, or some sort of maybe like training completion metric.

But like other than that, we can’t gauge progress, we’re not great at setting kind of strategic initiatives. We’re just putting out fires. We seemingly are the only function without really like concrete, numerical targets and benchmarks. And then we’re surprised why we sometimes don’t get a seat at the table.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, almost overlooking the quantitative aspects of what we do and being far too focused on the qualitative. And I think, certainly, don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge fan of both. You can’t just have it be a quantitative compliance activities and risk scores and injury results and things like that, because EHS does have to have some heart to it, right? There has to be that connected purpose and connected to the human value side of things to be impactful. So it has to have that qualitative piece. But so many businesses miss the quantitative, don’t they?

Lev Pobirsky:

They do, and I agree 100%, right? There’s some science, but I don’t think we’re great at either, really. Like on the science piece, I think, again, there’s a lot of technically competent, super knowledgeable, OSHA read kind of NFPA expert safety professionals, and that’s great. We need that.

But by the same token, there’s a lot of gaps that exist with soft skills with business intuition with understanding what supporting means. That we are the supporters of the business. We’re not the business. We’re not in business for EHS’s sake alone.

So I think like all that mash together sometimes really presents a challenge for especially younger EHS folks. And then leads to dissatisfaction sidelining of them by their operations partners.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve experienced this Lev, but this always makes me chuckle. I feel like when I come into a new business, I almost always have to educate the leadership team on what EHS does.

Here’s what we own. Here’s what we don’t own. Here’s our responsibilities, core responsibilities in the business, right? And so often they have no idea. Sure, they can throw around the term OSHA or the EPA. They understand the regulatory piece. But further than that, there’s a huge amount of misunderstanding inside business about where EHS fits in and how it’s supposed to be set up.

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah, I would agree. And I think that’s an opportunity often missed by EHS folks in terms of grabbing the reins and saying, I’m not asking you, I’m telling you, this is what we own. For you, this is the service we’re going to provide, right? We’ll do obviously regulatory things and OSHA log things.

But Hey, we’re also going to do emergency response and action planning. We’re also going to do mass notification. We’ll partner with HR to do mass notification. We’ll do thorough root cause analysis to prevent reoccurrence. We’re not just going to tell you that Bob fell. We’re going to prevent Bob from falling and also Tim and Susie from falling. So it’s a good opportunity, especially in those vacuum situations. If a leader is so you know inclined to jump in and make it your own and build your own story.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, exactly.

What do you have for your long term strategy? And Lev, let’s share with our listeners some best practices. I can speak to some things that I’ve done, right? And I’d love for you to as well. When I come in and I can see there’s a gap, there’s a big gap between where I think the business is and where the business thinks we are with EHS.

Sometimes they think we’re really good and we’re not. Sometimes they think we’re really bad and we’re not as actually bad off as they’d like to believe, right? Based on my analysis. How I’ve dealt with that is to do like a thorough kind of retraining. I come to the table, whether that’s a management review or we’re going to spend an hour just talk about EHS.

I take pictures, right? I back up some of my kind of feelings, around our current state of risk and compliance and implementation. I bring out some key examples, right? Of why do I have this perception? Let me walk you through my thought process on why I feel this way, why I would have graded us this way.

I use things like green, yellow, red, on the different topics. And then I back up what I’m saying, right? I give them kind of an overall kind of state of EHS, right? And how I came to those assertions. But what’s important, I think, is to end with, here’s what I’d like to do about that. So if we pull in all the reds, right?

Here is my strategic pathway with the EHS team, with other initiatives to cross collaborate. To get us into a better state. And here’s how long it’s going to take and here’s how you can expect to participate. So that’s something I’ve done in my past. What’s an example of something you’ve done?

Lev Pobirsky:

An example of something I’ve done, I think I’ve got a few that seem to work fairly well. So I think the first. It’s definitely like what you said, which is corral the highest level of leadership you can get to the table, however it is, right? Physically, Teams, whatever virtually.

And yeah, give them sort of a state of the business and try to make it a regular cadence or in another kind of offshoot of that is by every piece of intestinal fortitude you’ve got, try to get into any senior venue that you can. Especially ones that have all these other functions already there.

So quarterly reviews or businesses call it many different things, whatever that is in your business, try to get safety somewhere in there. If you can’t participate in person, then at least send something someone else will present on your behalf, right? There’s 312 slides in this deck.

Oh, you’re the 313th now. So to at least get it in the conversation. Now look, you can take it further and some companies start every venue with a safety message and any meeting of three people or more if you can get there, it’s amazing.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, but jump in any window.

Lev Pobirsky:

Any place and you have to be relentless and people often find it, annoying, I don’t know. But, through whatever channels you’ve got and add administrators for senior leaders or whatever just get in there. I think the other is, and this got more difficult. I don’t know why, but it did post COVID because now we’re all home or sometimes home or whatever. Like you have to go visit the people.

Go see folks, right? Visit them, buy them a coffee or whatever, and just, and talk and see and mingle because there is no replacement for that. There never will be right. I guess the way a lot of folks do it now is because I’ve seen this with folks on my team. It’s Hey, I’m the new regional, whatever. I’ll just do teams with all the nine people that I support as like an introduction. Okay, great.

You could have sent an email at that point. What’s the difference? Go to the place, the physical location, see where they work and their challenges. Cause that sort of discussion interpersonal connection is what it’s all about. Not, Hey, here’s an email to 3000 people that I’m Lev and I’m here to help. Nobody’s too amazed by that. And I think the third is brushing up on, or at least taking personal inventory of your own soft skills. All the kind of emotional quotient type stuff. How do you communicate? How do you deliver tough messages? How do you interact with folks who don’t want to hear what you’re saying?

How do you interact with people who don’t work for you? Cause really nobody outside the team works for you. So the sort of lateral dotted line leadership to support type stuff. And just the business basics, the blocking and tackling. Of punctuality the written word, the way you speak and just the way that you position the team as confident, professional and above reproach.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, I think that’s so important. I love that answer, Lev. And I wish that more directors at the top level role model, set the standard, right? There should be, I think every single EHS department should have a list of soft skill competencies. That they feel are the top 10, right? I will never forget. I saw this for the first time.

It was like my third year in EHS. And I was working for Michael Foods and Post Holdings who own them came in and they had this like top 10 soft skills of EHS leaders and action oriented influencing, right? All those things that you’ve just mentioned. And whether I agreed with it or not, right on what the 10 were.

At least they chose 10. At least there was something to go chase, right? And something, so they had every EHS leader like score themselves, rate themselves on the top 10, and go through this activity. And then they gave resources to set with your manager to start to improve in those 10 that they wanted to see for the EHS department and their business. I thought that was so great.

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah I totally agree. But I think because it’s harder and it’s squishy and it’s not, it’s easier to say, Hey, take another OSHA 30 or take, do your 510, 511. That’s okay. Got it. Four days done. I’m that much smarter.

And now I’m the best safety leader ever. But as a leader to tell someone that like you don’t spell well which in this day and age is beyond insanity, because there’s like AI. Grammarly. Like for you to do that now, it’s not a question of intelligence and no one’s, making certainly people feel, I don’t know, dejected but it’s just laziness and you’re either rushing or you just don’t care. I don’t know which is worse. Especially with younger folks, millennials, I don’t know, Gen Z folks, interpersonal conflict is not, nobody does it well, but they do it especially poorly and they just don’t like it.

And it’s much easier just to say, Hey, I’m sure it’s a fluke. That this person, this EHS professional of 15, 20 years, doesn’t know the difference between, I don’t know, you’re possessive and you are right. I’m just going to let it go. And then an email gets sent out and now people are like I guess person can’t spell and how do I know that they know the life safety code or whatever? I don’t know. It seems minor, but I think again it builds, especially in people you don’t interact with daily, only in these little snippets, it builds your brand as someone who is either solution oriented, adaptable, reliable, committed. And understanding where you fit in the scheme, as opposed to someone who is unreliable, flaky, doesn’t really show up, doesn’t support well, only brings me problems, not solutions, like that gets cemented, and that’s your legacy.

Hilary Framke:

I agree.

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah, I think it’s part of maybe a bigger kind of thought project or something worth thinking about where if you talk to peers, maybe outside of EHS, keep using the other support functions like they see themselves especially as they get more tenured as just leaders. Or more like just general, like enablers of success or whatever kind of leadership you want to use. I think for EHS folks, and maybe because I didn’t go to school for EHS again, didn’t come up thinking I would be here, although I’m glad I am. Like a lot of EHS folks just see themselves as EHS folks. You know what I mean? And I get it. There’s very specialized people doing amazing things. And they’re the only person who knows, all of appendix Z and every PL. Again, like that’s needed. Although you can look it up, but we need that. I got it. I understand. But I think we lose some of the core piece of what I’m trying to do, what we’re supposed to be trying to do.

So I used to work for a large consumer package goods company who had a large transportation fleet. And the big rig drivers, the tractor drivers, they consider themselves professional drivers. Because they’re DOT regulated, they drive for a living. There’s pride in that and there’s certain kind of a set of considerations and then the way you gear yourself a little bit different. And then we had drivers who delivered locally, kind of store to store. Not tractors, but smaller, still DOT regulated vehicles.

And we could not for the life of us, convince them to change their perception because they thought there were salespeople, right? Because they sell this product into stores, whatever it is.

And we said no you’ve got to think of yourself as a driver first, because you’re driving this 12, 15, 18,000 pound vehicle. So like it’s how you see yourself is how you’re going to move through the world and position yourself. Although there’s value in both, I would take the generalist approach and say, yes, I’m extremely knowledgeable in this, and I went to amazing arc flash training and I was the EPA scholar of the year, whatever. But I would supplement that with, Hey, I still need to do really good kind of business things, soft skill things, EQ things, because that’s what the people I’m supporting will understand and value and that’ll help you move the needle.

Hilary Framke:

I agree because then when you embody that role, that’s what the business then sees you as well. Not just an EHS tack on, right? And what happens if there’s no incidents? What happens if there’s really very little risk? Do you need to be there? Are you impactful if you’re not changing the business in some way and making it better? But to position yourself as a leader, who oversees the EHS function, but on top of that collaborates on projects, and influences culture and helps to maximize profit by identifying issues. It’s been so extremely powerful in my career to show the operational value of EHS, right? So to say, this is more than just the things that go wrong and fix them. We can find Hey, this is a guarding issue, but also there’s a jam issue.

We found out about the guarding issue, but the root cause analysis showed us this jams like 40 times a shift. This is a production problem let me help you, I’ll be on the team to work through a Kaizen event to fix the jam issue on the machine and make sure that we get also a better machine guard that’s not so heavy, so we don’t have shoulder strains anymore, right? What’s good for everyone, what’s good for the business is also good for EHS.

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah. Absolutely. But like in that example, for someone to approach you beyond just like the bare necessity of having to deal with you, right on a, it’s okay, lockout violation. Got it. We’ll fix it. Please go away. But then to engage you, you’ve got to be all the stuff we talked about helpful, cordial, agreeable, not a rollover necessarily. But someone that someone wants to interact with when they don’t have to, yes. Yes. Absolutely. Okay.

Hilary Framke:

And that’s where those soft skills come in.

Lev Pobirsky:

Correct. Yep. But if you’re, and again, I’m sure we’ve been up and down this sort of, everyone has this safety cop approach. Maybe some people like it, some don’t, whatever. That’s not, I think the discussion today as to how you position your safety program. But if, again, the perception is that these people come, they do some inspections, they do some audits, they do some investigations. They blame everyone publicly and embarrass folks, and praising in public, but disciplining in private, they do it the other way. And then they just roll out and we never see them again for six months. If that was the support I received, I would not seek you out.

And I think especially on LinkedIn, but folks that I followed in terms of their careers or stay connected people who I thought were really doing good things. I never had a mentor, but folks whose careers I was impressed by, the stuff that they at least publicly post isn’t Hey, I found to a point, another lockout point that nobody found that they’re like in the business at large, right?

Like impacting the whole trajectory of, I don’t know, public, private. Multinational, like pretty large organizations for the better meaning someone involved them voluntarily, cause they’re safety. They’re not the main, again, focus of the business. Someone brought them in because of all these things that they did correctly. And all these iterations of moments that were good, we’ll just say. Sometimes I think miss the forest for the trees and it’s unfortunate.

Hilary Framke:

Agreed. And I think we need to be more willing to look in the mirror, when we feel like we’re being left out of the business. And as you said, it can be very difficult to recover once you’ve been put on an island or you put yourself on an island, whichever has occurred. But you’re never going to be successful out on an island. So you’ve got to put a line in the sand, go to a top leader and say, this is how I feel.

This is where I’m at. Here’s what I’m experiencing. We’re not going to be successful this way. We’ve got to figure out how to recover this and get back on track and be partners. What can I do? What can you do? Let’s figure it out, but you got to take some ownership because it’s never blameless on either side.

Lev Pobirsky:

Certainly. And there was again, I’m not going to do a ton of kind of military stuff because there’s a lot of correlations but a lot of it does not correlate and it’s a little bit different, but in the Marine Corps, there was leadership kind of principles and there was a bunch of them.

And one of them was, know yourself and seek self improvement. And I think it starts there. And a lot of us just human nature wise, we’re not good at it, right? Because we see things from our perspective and we are always correct. Everyone else is always incorrect. I know for a fact, I grew up in New York and I know I talk too fast, I’ve been told this many times, I know it myself.

When I listened to like recordings or videos and like the more passionate and excited I get, the faster I talk and the worse it gets, which is not ideal for large presentations or senior meetings or whatever, because after a while, the emphasis and excitement just leads to looking like you’re on some sort of, class four drug.

But again, if you’ve been told the thing and you’ve seen it yourself in terms of self reflection, then you should probably take a look and work on it somehow. It doesn’t make you a bad person. It doesn’t mean you’re a terrible safety professional or leader. But there’s obviously kind of a movement nowadays. This may be opposed to back in the day of like self acceptance and like you are who you are and you’re great.

And nothing needs work. You’re just amazing the way you are. And yeah, everyone is intrinsically sure, but there’s stuff we can work on and if you think you’re the most amazing thing ever, great. That’s a good level of confidence, but you could probably get better. That’d be the most amazing, in the universe.

But this again, strange, like I am who I am. 20, 30, 40, 60 years old, and I don’t need to do anything else ever to get better at my 40, 50, 70 hour a week job. That’s a really strange approach, but it’s everywhere. It happens all the time. I would batch that in with the soft skills.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think you’re right. I think there is this movement of self acceptance, but I think the important differentiator, is you have to first know who you’re trying to be. I like to say, I use the term know your brand, right? My brand, I’ll speak about myself, is yeah it’s bubbly. It’s positive. It’s engaging. I say exactly what I think, it can be very direct. Some might say aggressive, when maybe I get off on my own soapbox, right? But those are things that I’ve decided I want my brand to be. I do want to be disruptive. I do want to be direct. I do want to say some of the things that people won’t say.

If I feel that it’s going to push our industry to the next level. And yeah, they’re like disgustingly positive. It’s just who I am, I’ve had people critique that and say that turns people off, it’s too much, I need to tone it down. I need to be more like level medium and my feedback to them is, I appreciate the feedback and I’ll try. I’ll do what I can to tone down the energy, like you said, maybe slow down your pace or be less smiley. I don’t know if I can do that, but I try to reach, because my goal is to reach as many people as possible. If your feedback is, I’m not reaching people because of my style.

Of course I’m going to try and temper it, but you can’t, I’m not going to change who I am, I’m not going to change my brand, there’s a certain amount of, I’m still going to keep this, I’m maybe just going to turn it down a couple notches, right? Changing myself doesn’t mean I’m changing who I am. It doesn’t mean that people don’t like it. You can go down two levels and still be that, right? And that’s what I try and share with my teams. When you get feedback, you should always receive it and you should always see it as someone’s trying to make you better. Not take it negatively or not take it as they’re trying to change yourself. Or your style. They’re just trying to help you be more successful. So you should receive it in kind and do your best.

Lev Pobirsky:

I would agree. So feedback is a gift, whether you I think you want to believe it or not. And someone took the time. Again, they don’t have to say anything. Now, look, unless they’re saying it purposely to make you feel bad or less than, that’s a different motive, fine.

But generally, if it’s well intentioned, that’s what we want people to do. That’s what we talked about previously, right? It’s people having that intestinal fortitude to approach, especially a peer, because it’s easy if it’s a subordinate, certainly. It’s even easy sometimes when it’s like a supervisor, because then you can show how helpful you are to criticize your boss and make these little corrections, but if it’s a peer, it’s really hard.

 The interpersonal safety. It’s extremely difficult because nobody wants to correct peers. But I think the pendulum has swung really to this other side in a pretty significant way, which is, I’m not going to tell anyone anything. No one can be offensive. You can never be offended. Everything is offensive. So I’m just not going to say anything to anyone ever because I’m afraid of this or that or whatever repercussion, personal, professional, societal. Where’s the sort of static and hopefully it’ll be okay, but it won’t.

Hilary Framke:

No, that’s a very scary place to be, especially culturally in a business where, these are really complex problems. They require our feedback. They require our collaboration. I think a lot of times what holds people back as well is I’m not really sure if that’s wrong.

It feels wrong to me, like my little internal flag system is ag going up, right? But I don’t know for sure that’s a quality issue or that’s an operational issue or that’s a safety issue. And so I don’t want to say anything because it’ll reveal that I don’t know this thing that maybe I should know.

And that’s a mistake. Don’t worry about if you don’t know it. Just call it out. And hopefully people will respond in a way that’s kind. If it isn’t an issue. But never let that hold you back. I feel that again shows some cultural immaturity. When people are afraid to be told off for their lack of knowledge, they should be praised for speaking up and I don’t care.

That’s why I always say there’s no bad questions. There’s no inappropriate comments. Just if you feel that there’s an EHS issue, I want to hear about it. And if I disagree, I’ll explain to you why. And we’ll talk through it. I’ll explain to you why that has little to no risk. Please don’t stop that from letting you speak up because you might save somebody’s life.

Lev Pobirsky:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Hilary Framke:

Let’s shift gears. So being that we both agree that this training and development around soft skills for EHS professionals is clearly so vital, and amiss by many EHS professionals, how do you suggest we bridge the gap within the EHS industry? How do we improve this across our field?

Lev Pobirsky:

Every time you train your folks technically. Technical, and then a soft skill component, technical soft skill component, or two and two or three and three or whatever, one month off one month, like whatever your cadence is.

If you look back at your training of your team for the past, if you’ve been there long enough, quarter, year, decade, and you look through the roster or the Excel sheet or whatever you’ve got. And it’s again, nothing but OSHA 510s and 511s and Arc Flash this and Fall Protection that and that is it either you’re assuming your folks are getting stuff on their own and they’re probably not, ’cause everyone’s pretty busy and some people have to be guided and pushed a little bit. But you’re probably missing quite a bit, right? And you’re really tipping the scales technically and leaving quite a bit on the table.

And it’s so simple because everything is digital. You can send people books online. You could, a lot of stuff is PDF findable, little pamphlets and things. And you can Google what, I don’t know, a hundred best business books or a hundred best books for EQ, or, get five dysfunctions of a team and buy 20 copies on Amazon for five bucks a piece.

Like it’s not like tremendous. You have to send people to a health and wellness retreat in the Hills of Vermont for two weeks. It’s not quite like that, I don’t think. But just little things, right? It could be, I remember an organization I was in, same consumer packaged goods company.

We had a kind of email skills for senior leader type thing. Where a person came in, she was some sort of email expert and talked about, when you’re writing emails, begin with the end in mind, grammar and bullet points are better than paragraphs.

I don’t know, for some of us, it was simple stuff and kind of a reminder for others, you could tell it was like, unbelievable, right? Like I never heard people process bullets more than 12 paragraph essay, right? So again, there’s internal resources, external. Stuff on LinkedIn and YouTube and, Khan Academy or whatever, like these free courses are, there’s so much out there that’s free or cheap and easy to access that we’re, I think doing a disservice. And personally, I like to have monthly meetings with the team. I have a team that’s pretty spread out. Contrary to what I said, this one has to be virtual. Otherwise it’s just financially would not be viable. But we talk about some of these soft skill things. In other words, we use that meeting to talk about nothing technical at all.

Like it will not be mentioned. There’s other times for that. So you have a lockout issue. You have a guarding thing. We’ve got to change all the, external ladder cages by 2034. Like fine. That’s not this. This is how we communicate, how we write, and emote, how we connect with partners, but that’s what we talk about. There’s a lot of ways to do it. You just got to just take a step.

Hilary Framke:

Yeah, I love that. That was going to be my suggestion as well. You’re having team meetings. You absolutely are meeting with your internal EHS teams on a recurring basis. Infuse some training and development for that team. I used to bring like clips. They don’t need to hear from me. I’m not an expert. Now, I’ll pull in TED talks, right? I’ll like curate and go pick out videos. Communication, influencing, how to be action oriented, how to lead a project.

Various things like that and just make them in our team meeting, force them to watch a 15 to 20 minute video and say we’re gonna watch it together and then we’re gonna talk about it. We’re gonna debrief. What did you get out of that? Are you doing this? Are you not? Where can you improve?

What ideas do you have? Let’s kick around ideas on a virtual whiteboards, kick around ideas about how to be better at project management and being action oriented and setting milestones, things like that. But as you said, Lev, and I couldn’t agree more, and I hope the listeners hear this and learn from this.

If you’re not doing both one for one technical training and improvement and soft skills with your team, you’re leaving a lot on the table in your words.

Lev Pobirsky:

I would say so, yes.

Hilary Framke:

We’ve gone through a lot. Gosh, thank you so much for all your contributions here today. Thank you for all that you’re doing and for being willing to do a podcast that was a little off color.

We didn’t really talk the technical EHS things at all, but I love it. I think it needs to be talked about more. Thank you for your insights on this topic and for being a guest on the podcast today.

Lev Pobirsky:

Certainly. Thank you for having me.