Elevating the “H” in EHS: How to Impact Employee Well-Being

Hilary Framke: I’m Hilary Framke your host of the Elevate EHS podcast. I’m with a really fun and different guest today. Welcome, Sylvia. 

Sylvia Marusyk: Thank you, Hilary.

Hilary Framke: Hi Sylvia, I’m so pleased that you were willing to come on my podcast. Sylvia is a different guest because she’s not a classic EHS person. She is in the space, but she’s an activational health and wellness speaker, an occupational therapist, an entrepreneur. You’re running your own consultancy, MindBody Works, kudos to you. I love that. What inspired you to help drive this change in organizational health and well being?

Sylvia Marusyk: I’ve worked for some really challenging employers. So I’ve had my own personal experience with that. Many years ago, I was involved in two programs, one that I developed and ran and one that I worked in as an occupational therapist. So the one I worked in was called the Work Injury Management program.

And the whole idea there was getting people back to work, that had failed at every form of physical rehabilitation that they had been through. So that program was the last kick in the can for those people. And I simultaneously developed a stress injury management program which was to help people with stress injuries.

So people who were off on a stress leave or to return to work because of some mental health condition, my program was also the last kick at the can for them. And what I realized is that the degree of suffering, people were experiencing was so extreme. Working at every part of our life. It influences not only the eight hours or 12 hours that we’re at work, but it spills over into personal life. And so prevention became a passion for me. Let’s get people healthy and well in the workplace so that we can help prevent some of these things that I was seeing.

Hilary Framke: I think that’s so true. And when you think about how many prevention efforts there are in the safety space. The leading indicators and all the things that we found out over the last couple decades. There are a lot of prevention efforts on the safety side, but I wouldn’t say that we get to a lot of the prevention efforts on the health side, do we?

Sylvia Marusyk: No, we don’t. And I think one of the biggest problems is that we’re dealing with people, right? We’re dealing with people who make choices. And who also don’t always know what they need. They don’t always have the insight to say okay, I need to take better care of my health. Or I need to follow this safety protocol, even though it’s really stupid.

I can cut things without the use of gloves and not cut myself. I’ve been doing it for 20 years. Now there’s a safety protocol that says I have to wear safety gloves every time I use my knife. That’s just stupid. This is the stuff I hear from people, right? So they don’t want to do some of these things and they don’t even know why they should do some of these things.

And when we’re dealing with people, behavior change is really the hardest thing for us as employers to promote and push. People don’t wake up in the morning and go I am so down for really hard work on changing my behavior today. 

Hilary Framke: Like I’m going to go to work and I’m going to get enough sleep and I’m going to take care of myself and I’m going to hydrate enough because I know it’s hot today.

Like so many of our employees aren’t making good decisions for themselves. 

Sylvia Marusyk: I was having a meeting with some safety and health professionals and they were saying, we just need to survey people to find out what they want in terms of wellness.

I’m like, Hey, that’s not enough. To actually do an assessment of where people are at, in terms of the nine dimensions of wellness. I’m going to say, I want yoga on fridays. But the biggest issue I’m dealing with is the elephant in the room that I don’t want to address and that is I have a blood sugar dysregulation problem.

And I have not dealt with that because I don’t want to go to the doctor. I don’t want to go on medication. From a health perspective, that’s actually more important than yoga on fridays or saturdays or whatever day. 

Hilary Framke: It’s so interesting. We would never do this on the safety side. We’d never say, let’s let people pick what safety programs they would like to pursue at our business this month, right? If they choose confined space, we will choose to focus on confined space. We take a very analytical, data based approach to do a risk assessment, and then look at how much does that apply to us, and where are the gaps in the program. And do a gap analysis, and then work to fill those gaps. It’s so funny, isn’t it?

On the health side, we’re just like, whatever the employees want to do or whatever they’re interested in, we’ll give them. 

Sylvia Marusyk: And on the health side, it is so much more abstract and you don’t know where to focus. Do we focus on back injuries? Because, our numbers are up, in terms of our MSI scores. It’s back as our number one issue.

So do we focus on that? Yeah, that’s probably a good thing to focus on, but what about the fact that you have an aging population still doing material handling and they’re losing 8% of their muscle strength per decade after the age of 30, they’re now 50. You now have 24 percent of your team that’s doing material handling. They’re 50 or over. So ostensibly, they’ve already lost some muscle mass, but the physical demands are the same. Maybe we need to focus on that. But again, unless you have done an assessment of the health needs, the wellness needs, you don’t really know where to focus. And it’s not good enough to say, what would you like?

Hilary Framke: So do you think that part of the reason the strategy is taken of, just go out and ask the employee base, is maybe because there’s a lack of knowledge about the nine dimensions of health, right? There’s a lack of knowledge in our EHS professionals, HR professionals, who ever is managing this program about how to go tackle the data analysis side of things.

Sylvia Marusyk: I would agree with that. And let’s be honest, safety professionals don’t get a lot of health education, right? This is why it’s so important to have resources at your disposal where you can pull on to somebody like a Sylvia or a consultant or whatever or just information at your disposal on health and being that might be applicable to your group or team.

When we talk about prevention, it’s very important to understand the demographics of your workplace. Here’s an example, if 25 percent of your, let’s say it’s an office, if it’s an office building. Maybe it’s a technology company and everybody has a desk. If 20 percent of your workers are female and they are perimenopausal or menopausal, the risk is extremely high that they will have a higher than average rate of carpal tunnel syndrome and frozen shoulder, not to mention a whole host of other musculoskeletal issues because we now have research that 71 to 80% of women in perimenopause and menopause will suffer from something called the Musculoskeletal Syndrome of Menopause. 25% of them will be debilitated by it. So we have to pay attention to the demographic and go, okay listen, if we have a higher than average risk with 25 percent of these people, we’re going to do some preventative things.

We’re going to make sure everybody has a vertical mouse. We’re going to give them some education at the minimum on shoulder and neck placement, right? We want everyone ears over shoulders over hips. We want spine in neutral, right? We don’t want reaching palm down. We want a vertical mouse. We want armrests.

Yeah. So that’s just a small example of how the demographic might inform us of a risk that we want to remediate.

Hilary Framke: Exactly. And we can’t depend on an employee base that may be even less educated on health indicators and demographics and what disorders tend to trend and occur, increase in probability based on age and all those things. 

Something to consider as well that I want to shoot past you. There are health and wellbeing topics that I would say tend to just be in your personal life, right? Like obviously you can have a heart attack at the job, right? You spend a certain amount of hours on job, right? So there’s always going to be like work impacts, but I feel like there are certain health and wellbeing topics that are like occupational health topics. And maybe organizations should start with stress management. We know that work is a huge contributor into one’s stress. But isn’t that someplace they could start too?

Sylvia Marusyk: I think that’s also a great idea. And what that does is it does some things that are not obvious.

One of the things it does is it sends a message to the employees, that we care about you. It’s interesting cause for a couple of decades, as a presenter, as a professional speaker, I’ve been known as the stress expert. And when I come into a workplace and maybe they’re having a safety day and I’m talking about stress, it feels personal. It suddenly doesn’t feel like, Oh, here’s yet another educational session on how you can do more work for us. How we can get you to work harder, faster, and cheaper. No, this seems like it’s a gift to the employee to help them with their personal health. But the flip side of it is that an employee who has stress management skills and tools, shows up to work with a frontal lobe that is online.

And if the frontal lobe is not online, if that employee has very poor stress management skills, and they show up to work stressed out about what’s happened at home, what happens at work, is that the part of the brain that has to run that stress response gets all the blood flow. The frontal lobe, which is responsible for troubleshooting, problem solving, noticing hazards, seeking assistance with hazards, being organized, following steps, that part of the brain gets very limited blood flow, which puts not only that worker’s safety at risk, but it also puts everybody else’s safety at risk. 

And we all know this because we’ve all driven through a stop sign when we were upset and preoccupied about something. We’ve all gone through a red light.

We’ve all taken a wrong turn. We’ve all been preoccupied and upset and left a stove burner on. We know this to be true. The stress management universally is a critical topic to teach your employees, how to quickly get their nervous system back online, that frontal lobe back online, how to shift from sympathetic to parasympathetic nervous system, quick hacks.

Let’s get you back online and then we can support you in the bigger issues. You’re going through a divorce. You have financial problems. We have an employee assistance program or whatever. That’s an adjunct. So that’s one. The other thing is Musculoskeletal Injuries, especially as we age, do we still have to teach people how to lift properly?

How not to reach for an object with their palm down and their elbow extended, putting them at risk for a rotator cuff injury. Do we still need to talk about the extreme force that people are using for tools that don’t require that much force. There are so many issues related to MSI that we still need to work on.

When it comes to engagement, it’s super important for people to show up with the attitude that I am going to be engaged in this job. It’s so important to have a culture of respect. Like we got to work on this stuff because when we have bullying and things like that in workplaces or disrespect in workplaces, that becomes a stressor to that employee that is the victim.

Hilary Framke: That is such a transformative thought nugget. I want to take a moment to discuss this. Because I think when we do root cause analyses as EHS leaders for, why aren’t I getting hazard identifications? Why aren’t I getting involvement in my EHS program?

I think we so often go down this thought track of, it’s hard to report. People don’t know what the hazards are. It’s too difficult. We’re not managing the corrective actions. They go down totally the safety realm, but I think what you just identified is a new pathway. And honestly, which I’ve never considered, and I’ve been in EHS my whole career.

Like you said they’re not using that part of their brain because the stress is taking on so much, right? So they know what to do. They know everything that needs to be done for the program, but because they’re dealing with some stress or other things, they can’t get there. 

Sylvia Marusyk: Exactly. And what we say when these incidents happen is,

What is wrong with you? And the correct question is, What has happened to you? It’s not generally bad behavior. It’s not generally somebody waking up in the morning and saying, you know what? I plan to be injured today. I plan to violate a safety protocol. I just did a bunch of sessions last week with one of the companies that I regularly consult to, and it was time for us to redo the injury prevention training.

And one of the things I talked about is the fact that it’s so easy to forget safety things. It is so easy to forget that there’s a safety protocol and we’ve had some very serious injuries in this particular production facility recently. And they’ve been due to silly things like not wearing your gloves, when you’re cutting with a knife.

And getting a cut. There’s a rule. You don’t touch the product while the machine is running. Even if it’s folded, even if it’s crinkled, you don’t touch it. Somebody did and had a crush injury. Why are people doing these things? It isn’t bad behavior. It’s that people forget for a moment because their brains are occupied. There’s a lot of stress in these guys lives.

Like they’re young people. They’re trying to raise families. A lot of them are going through divorce. Half of my consulting time there is settling people’s nervous systems. And trying to give them a strategy for dealing with the stress in their life, which will then hopefully be moved on to some counselor that they will choose through their employee assistance program.

I need to get them started so that can settle their nervous systems so they can be safe at work. 

Hilary Framke: You’re almost like a little catalyst. 

Sylvia Marusyk: And you know what? My job is two things. To create safety, emotional safety and hope in every interaction. Now, sometimes I’m trying to create physical safety, right?

When it’s a physical injury, but when it’s an emotional or psychological injury, trying to create a safe environment for that person to talk about it, and then a strategy that gives them hope. So what I said to the guys last week is how can we hack the fact that the brain goes offline.

How do we hack that? And so we used motivational change theory, which says that in order to change behavior, we need motivation, plus the confidence in our ability to make the change. Now, I’ve created a formula that adds two more pieces to this. So my formula is we need motivation, either internal or external motivation, either there’s, I really want to change because I had a back injury and I never want to have that again. Or I really need to change because if I don’t, I’m going to get written up. Doesn’t matter where the motivation comes from. Now we need a plan so that we know how to execute that and feel confident that we can do it. And then I added plus practice equals habit. So here’s what I suggested. Hack the confidence piece by taking your gloves, wrapping them around your knife with an elastic band, and then you shove the whole thing in your pocket. So it’s not your knife here and your gloves over there. And then you get to the machine and you’re like, Oh, I forgot my gloves.

I’m not walking all the way back. Make it so that you never forget them. That’s the hack, right? You got a hack your own brain in a sense that when you’re preoccupied, you’re going to forget your gloves to make it so that you couldn’t do that. 

Hilary Framke: It’s engineering it out. Like poka-yoke you. Finding a way so that you can’t do it the wrong way. 

Sylvia Marusyk: You and I went to that session with Jesse Singer in Austin and the other perspective on this, is that as employers you almost have to make it impossible for people to make those mistakes, right? You have to assume that people will make mistakes like touching the product while the machine is running.

So you have to make sure that there is no possibility that could ever happen.

Hilary Framke: Pursuing resiliency, right? That is a key factor that more businesses need to move towards. The more you’re engineered, the more resilient you are. It doesn’t matter if employees are stressed and they’re not using the frontal lobes, because there’s no way for them to be injured.

We put a blockade in between them and the hazard, right? 

Sylvia Marusyk: You got it.

Hilary Framke: What do you think, some organizations are sitting there going, I think we’re okay? I feel like we have a pretty, mediocre or above average health program. I bet you know some indicators that might tell them what they can look at to decide if their program does need an overhaul or not.

 

Sylvia Marusyk: Absolutely. I think it’s really important to look at productivity. That’s always a good indicator, especially if there aren’t productivity targets, specific targets, like people will die trying to get to those numbers. But if you just notice that there’s a department or a team or a small team where things are not going as well that might be an indicator that there’s something happening there for sure.

Benefits usage is huge, right? If you have access to knowing that, say cardiovascular blood pressure meds are up 30% or antidepressants are up 25% or the EAP usage is up. The employee assistance program usage is up. Or if you have any of those kinds of things, that’s a pretty clear indicator that you have a problem. And you might not have a problem right at this moment, but these are runaway trains.

Yeah. These are things that are indications that your people are not okay. And please understand that just because somebody’s on a medication doesn’t mean that they’re okay now. I’m on an antidepressant. I’m super happy. My life is great. No, it’s not. You’re still going to struggle until you have the skills, the tools, the ability to stop some of the suffering.

To tackle some of those problems in your life. So that’s a really good indicator. I think another indicator, you think everything is going well, but this just happened the other day. I was in a meeting and they said over the last 4 months, we’ve had a 40% increase in people bumping their head.

I said, in 4 months? What’s going on? We don’t know. I said, I’m going to tell you what’s going on. Their response was, we don’t know exactly but it’s clearly a lack of situational awareness. I’m like, these people have worked in this department for many years. This is not a lack of situational awareness.

This is a stress problem. I said, I’ll eat my right shoe if I’m wrong. Something’s changed in this department, and these people are stressed out. 

Hilary Framke: You’re frustrated. When you’re dealing with too many factors at once, that’s when I see myself make poor mistakes, poor behaviors, right?

I’m rushing. I’m thinking about something else. I’m frustrated over an interaction that happened recently. Like you said, it’s that your brain isn’t on the frontal lobe.

Sylvia Marusyk: And my response to this comment was you don’t need an injury prevention session for these people. You need a management intervention. This is an indicator that we’ve got a management issue here. That’s what’s going on for these people. Now, could I do a stress management session for them? Oh, hell yeah.

 It’s just like any injury. I always say that whether it’s a stress injury or physical injury, we always have to do two things. Number one, we have to treat the problem. So I can give them all kinds of tools to treat their stress. But number two, we have to stop triggering the problem. If you’ve blown out your rotator cuff by doing this motion constantly, then I can treat that.

I can give you exercises to strengthen. I can give you stretches. I can teach you body mechanics, but if you keep triggering this, we’re not going to get very far. And it’s the same thing with a stress injury. If we don’t deal with the trigger, which again, I’m going to eat my right shoe if I’m wrong, we got to deal with the management. We are not going to be able to help these people enough to stop the incidence of head bumping.

Hilary Framke: And don’t you think this is how EHS practitioners can get involved? We’re the investigation people. We have really strong skills in investigative situations. It doesn’t just have to be about safety, we could get involved in investigation of health related issues. Obviously, we’ll need cross functional help. But we’ve got some skills in this area, in the risk assessment, in the building, strategic programs, investigating the root causes, contributing factors for certain events. We can get involved in this.

Sylvia Marusyk: You know what? For so many safety and health professionals, this will be the missing piece for you. In really getting buy in and getting people to trust and understand and come to you when they have issues and concerns. I shouldn’t be the only person that knows about the bullying that’s going on in a workplace.

I shouldn’t be the only person who goes, wait a minute, why are we having so much turnover here? What’s going on? You should be able to get that information from your team because they trust you and they know beyond a shadow of a doubt you care. You’re not just the enforcer, you are also the supporter.

Hilary Framke: So looking into some of those, I think even just monitoring those metrics, productivity by department, turnover by department, maybe even quality issues. That could have an engineering root cause, but it could be people related as well. It depends. I’m sure quality has done an investigation to find out which.

But getting on board with that and putting together like a cross functional set of monitoring metrics. Things we should watch and look at that tell us about our organizational well being. 

Sylvia Marusyk: Yes, look at your MSI, look at your time loss, look at how often people have doctor’s appointments.

In most of the production facilities I work in, there’s no paid sick time. So people are taking their vacation day or their days off to do their doctor’s appointments. But if you do have paid sick time, like how often are people using sick time? What’s the rate of leave?

What’s your medical leave like? How often, how long are people off? What’s your injury rate? Not just your MSI. Not all MSIs, musculoskeletal injuries lead to time loss. So you want to track those injuries that get reported, but also how many of those lead to time loss. That’s a big expense. 

Hilary Framke: In the U.S., there’s also government programs like the Family Medical Leave Act, FMLA, right? And obviously that’s a protected act. We’re not looking to know why people have FMLA or anything like that, but how many cases of FMLA, recurring leave, or those one time ad hocs, again is good information.

10% of our worker population is on FMLA leave. We’ve got a lot going on that needs to be managed. And if it’s heavily, concentrated in a specific area or department, might be worth doing an investigation to see if there’s a trend, something that we can do to help.

I think that’s great, Sylvia. These are great tips to get started. And frankly, I agree with you. It’s a little shocking how much we aren’t doing in the health space. I’m going to get behind you in this Elevate H series. 

Sylvia Marusyk: It’s a groundswell, man. This is a movement.

Hilary Framke: It absolutely should be. Like you said, if you’ve not done anything in this space, if you’re not paying attention to it, if you’re not attacking it, this could be that missing link, to your culture of care, building trust and credibility in your EHS program that gets your employees on board.

So I want to double click on the stress management side of things. As you said, this is something that you have practiced, something that you talk about a lot. So what are some practical stress management techniques that companies can implement to help employees cope with workplace pressures? 

Sylvia Marusyk: Excellent question.

I just found out this is brand new sort of breaking news that Australia has now instituted a law that employees have the right to ignore their employers if they are being contacted outside of work hours. 

Hilary Framke: Really?

Sylvia Marusyk: Isn’t that glorious news? This is such a big step towards helping people create better work life integration.

Work life balance is so yesterday, there’s no such thing, because it implies that it needs to be equal. It’s work life integration. That’s where that whole area of understanding is moving towards. There needs to be an integration, not a balance. But I love, love, love this.

This is something that companies could do to work on their stress management strategies, is make sure that nobody gets contacted outside of work hours. Another thing, this came up with a very large company I was working with, a global company, but I was working with one particular facility in the U.S. where they did not have a limit on the number of days of overtime someone could work. So some of the employees in this particular organization had worked six months without a day off. Zero days off, Hilary. Zero days off. 

Hilary Framke: Are you serious? 

Sylvia Marusyk: Mandatory overtime with no limit. Don’t do that. Don’t do that to the people.

They will hate you. They will hate you for it. And if you pay really well, the golden handcuffs will force them to choose that to throw themselves under the bus. Honest to God, you can’t do that physiologically, physically, psychologically, you can’t do that. You can’t work that much. They are handcuffed to that job, but they will hate you.

They will be disengaged. They will even subconsciously sabotage the workplace in ways that they’re not even aware of. Don’t do that to your people. That’s a great stress management tool. 

Hilary Framke: And talk about increasing the probability of injury. 

 

Sylvia Marusyk: It’s an exponential increase, right? So that’s a really good stress management tool.

Another stress management tool is to listen to your employees when they say something’s wrong or something’s not working, or we need to change this. I’ve seen this in so many production facilities where there’s a number, a target that needs to be hit. So the machine just goes insanely fast. So I’m going to give you an example. We have one production facility where they have something called a vacuum lift. So a vacuum lift is this fantastic miraculous invention. Pull it down. It picks up the box. It effortlessly moves the box and you can place the box. So it is a brilliant invention, but if the production line moves so fast that there is no time to use a vacuum lift, I have no words to describe how insane that is.

To run the line too fast to use the device that has been purchased at a cost of thousands of dollars to save people from back injuries. And we’re blowing backs out on that line. You can’t do that. And let’s remember, stress management is not just emotional stress.

We’re trying to manage physical stress, psychological stress, chemical stress. We don’t want chemical exposure in our production facilities or any workplaces. We’re trying to manage metabolic stress, when people are overheated and they’re losing electrolytes, it’s not good enough to give them water.

They need to have electrolytes and they need to have sugar free electrolytes. Don’t be giving them sugar and stuff with dye in it. Like one plant got all these packages of stuff. It’s got red dye in it. I love that you want to help your employees, but please make a choice that doesn’t create some other metabolic or chemical stress for them.

So many people are allergic to red dye and they have horrific reactions to red dye. So let’s make sure our interventions for whatever type of stress we’re trying to intervene, we’re not causing additional harm in some other way. 

Hilary Framke: That’s so interesting. Sorry, I just want to interject. It’s such an interesting point of view to think about work pace as a health consideration, right? Yes. Set in an organizational infrastructure, and almost outside of EHS’s purview, but again not that we own it, or not that it’s something we should set. We certainly don’t want to take on that responsibility, but more of a monitoring. To say, give me a printout of all the work pace targets set across all the lines in our facility. And let’s find the ones that are in that from that bell curve. The ones that are at a really high pace and have a conversation with management about, how are the employees handling this? Are we hitting these targets? Is this why we’re turning people over?

Is it vetting them out for performance because the target is too high? Is this increasing their stress management? Such an interesting point of view that I never would have considered from an EHS practitioning side of things, but it does really integrate inside that health space.

Sylvia Marusyk: And this is what I love when you bring health into health and safety. It’s just a bigger picture that moves the needle in ways that you can’t move the needle any other way. I’m going to give you another interesting sort of organizational way of managing stress. So this would be an organizational factor. I was working with one global company in one of their plants in Texas, some years ago, and we had one particular crew, they had four crews that worked alternating shifts, this one crew had like stupid turnover. They could not keep new employees for anything.

I wanted to dig into that, although that wasn’t really what my job was when I was there. I was delivering management seminars to each employee group. I had 3 interview questions and I went around and talk to as many people as possible. Came back, did a strategic planning session with the management team. I distilled everything into themes and said, so if we wanted to make this place a happier, healthier workplace, these are the 10 themes that came up consistently. One of them was the turnover in this particular department. And I was like, this is so curious, like what’s going on here.

So here’s what I found out by talking to the employees. They hate new employees. Because here’s what happened. New employees were getting really poor training from the trainer that was assigned to that group. So what that left is the employees trying to keep up to the speed of the machine while they’re trying to tell the new employee what to do.

The new employee is walking in. It’s a production facility. I could not even begin to do that job. It’s speed, it’s accuracy. You better be accurate or you’re in big trouble. There’s so much going on. So it’s a noisy environment. So here’s a new employee and he can feel that he is the biggest cog in this wheel. Everybody’s pissed off with him. He’s not coming up. I’m trying to do my job. Now I’m having to pick up after you. It’s learning another language. He has no support from his trainer. And so can you imagine the level of stress of that employee? 

Hilary Framke: Workplace harassment. 

Sylvia Marusyk: That’s what it felt like. So I interviewed a couple of new recruits and said, can you tell me a little bit about your experience here? Cause I started to put two and two together. When I’m hearing the employees ranting about how much training they’re having to do on the job. I’m like, Kate, where’s the trainer? So I go find the trainer.

I interview the trainer. I do, but it’s. They got to really learn it on the job. It’s really an on the job learn. That’s not a very healthy perspective. I go to talk to the new recruits. They’ve only been there, one of them only a few weeks, the other one a month. And they’re like, this is unbelievably stressful.

I don’t know if I’m going to stay. So I go back to management and I say, here’s our issue. What do you guys want to do about it? And they don’t know what to do. I don’t know. Do we have to talk to the trainer? How about you train the trainer, how to train these employees. You got three other teams that are doing well, right? And then we need to talk to these employees and go back to the stress management presentation and remind them that when you become a stressor to a new employee, their frontal lobe is offline and now your safety is impaired. Do you want that or do you want to support with your words and actions and energy every new employee?

Cause guess what? You need them. Every time you have an employee quit, do they say you know what? This line is short. Let’s just shut it down. Or do they just make you work harder? You’re shooting yourself in the foot. Bring these people into the fold, help them in every way you can keep their frontal lobes online.

Work with them knowing that the trainer is going to do a better job of training, but you guys are there to say we’re here for you .And then put your money where your mouth is so they stay. And you know what? That’s what they all did. No problem with the retention of those employees. It took a couple of months. It probably took them two or three months to sort that mess out, but they sorted it out. That line is still running great to this day. 

Hilary Framke: Oh, amazing. I love that story. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for all of your insights today. I feel like we hit some and just started to barely uncover this topic of health inside EHS. So thank you for being a guest on the podcast. Thank you listeners always for listening in. We couldn’t have a podcast without you and we’ll see you next time and more to come on this health topic. 

Sylvia Marusyk: Thank you so much, Hilary.