Exploring EHS Perspectives and Innovations: A Journey Through Industries, Cultures, and Management Systems 

Hilary Framke: Good afternoon, listeners. I’m Hilary Framke, your host of the Elevate EHS podcast. I’m here today with Kim Moore. Kim, thank you for joining me. 

Kim Moore: Thank you for having me. 

Hilary Framke: I’m so excited. Let’s start with a little bit about your EHS background. Tell us about you. 

Kim Moore: Sure. I actually studied environmental science in college. So it was funny. I fell into EHS and I began my career with General Electric in their lighting division. So we were making fluorescent lamps. I’m sure everyone can imagine why I’m no longer doing that. Since LEDs are the name of the game now, but loved it was hired on to do environmental health and safety was rather new to me.

But I loved the people aspect of it and you don’t get that as much on the environmental side. Really loved it and continued with it. Went on from there, from manufacturing fluorescent bulbs to really the healthcare industry and we were doing some manufacturing of medical devices in that industry. And then eventually I did that for almost a decade, and then I moved into aerospace, which was a very different space for me and I worked for Pratt & Whitney, we were making jet engines both military and commercial, and that was absolutely fascinating for me.

I loved my work there. And then eventually I landed in the paper and paperboard manufacturing industry, which is where I’m at now with Graphic Packaging International. So that’s really me in a nutshell. 

Hilary Framke: Oh my gosh, you have done so many different industries. Tell me a little bit, what’s that like? I always worried making an industry jump. Was that your experience or was it easy to go industry to industry? 

Kim Moore: I think that’s a great question. And I wonder if a lot of especially younger professionals do worry about that. I didn’t find it easy by any means, certainly every industry was different. But I also never felt like I was starting from scratch. The regulations are the regulations. You may not have gotten experience in some of the regulations in one industry that you experience in another. But the people are the people.

And I find that interacting with people and trying to engage employees. That didn’t change from industry to industry. The regulations may be a little different because you may not have experienced aerospace regulations when you were in the healthcare industry. But interacting with people and engaging employees never felt different.

Hilary Framke: I love that. It’s like you carry your soft skills with you always, right? The technical, the hard skills might be a little bit of a learning curve. But also I found in my experience, and I’d be interested to hear your thoughts, the applications of the programs were so different. Like where one industry like had this solved and had a really cool solution for it. I’d go to the next industry and they didn’t have a solution. I’m like just industry to industry, we have differences in program implementation for EHS.

Kim Moore: Yes, I have found that in some industries that were older than others. They had very established programs. Very established initiatives. In some cases there were times where I’m like, Oh, it’s been going on so long. Maybe we’re a little bit behind the times and we need to modernize this program or this initiative. But yes, that I agree with. Implementing programs, it definitely did differ a bit from industry to industry. You’re right. I like the way you put it. You carry your soft skills through each one. 

Awesome. So you’ve had some really unique experiences, one of which that we discussed in our prep call was being a female EHS leader in the Middle East. Tell me more about that. I really want to hear about what that was like.

Yes. So I will say that was probably one of the most interesting periods of my career. This was more recent. I was a regional EHS leader in the Middle East from about 2018 to 2020. And of course, 2020 with the onslaught of COVID and the restrictions on travel, I did take a different job, but for that two years it was fascinating.

Certainly there are hurdles to being a female leader in many different industries. The hurdles I experienced as a woman in the Middle East were different. There’s certainly not fewer or more but they were different and navigating those was an adventure and a bit of a journey.

I will say though, I learned more navigating those hurdles as a female leader in the Middle East than I think I did at any other point in my career. Being respectful of cultural norms is a pretty important thing and I don’t know that every EHS leader experiences that if they only lead in the States.

Every country is different. Middle East is no different. Every country is different. And yeah it was an interesting time. I’ll say that. 

Hilary Framke: Could you share a specific example of a cultural norm that caught you off guard that you had to get on board with and was like a learning curve for you?

Kim Moore: Yes, there were a lot of examples of that. So I’ll say this, I was pretty well traveled before I headed to the Middle East and so I really thought I would be very prepared. Yeah. But I wasn’t in many ways, it didn’t occur to me that there would be men that I needed to do business with, or at least have a conversation with who couldn’t shake my hand.

So being introduced to them ended up being a little bit of an awkward situation at first. So eventually I learned that I don’t automatically reach for the handshake as you do in many cultures. I didn’t do that there I had to learn to wait and see if this person initiated the handshake first because then I knew that they were allowed to shake my hand. There were men that couldn’t be you know alone in a room with me. So that was a hurdle that at first I was really taken aback by because I just hadn’t considered it.

Another one is how you dress. My definition of modest clothing and their definition of modest clothing were vastly different and it is important, especially when I need people to hear me and to want to hear what I have to say and to respect what I have to say. It’s important that they believe that I respect them too.

I was very grateful. I had some site contacts that were amazing and they were willing to help me come up to speed with cultural norms and help me with the more awkward moments where I’m realizing that I’m making it awkward simply by trying to shake hands or by not wearing longer sleeves or things of that nature.

Hilary Framke: Oh my gosh. And isn’t that the best advice, right? I would say to any EHS leader who is wary, you’re moving into a regional role, you’re getting a region that you’ve never had before, right? You’ve never traveled to this country of origin before. The best advice that I can give is, and Kim just heard it from Kim’s mouth, right?

Connect with your site contacts. Be open enough and transparent enough to ask the questions and to say things like, are there cultural norms I should be aware of? Are there things I need to plan for? Are there things I need to pack, ahead of time? And plan for so that I’m not caught off guard and I make the best impression that I can.

Kim Moore: Yes, 100%. I can’t push that more, just like we have different cultural differences in the US as well, right? Doing business in the South is going to be different than doing business on the West Coast. We have cultural differences and I say it’s no different there and by that, they also have cultural differences and it was amazing. My time there was amazing. I met some of the warmest, most welcoming people ever, but I definitely had to get over that hurdle of, I want to make sure they know that I respect them so that they respect what I’m having to say. 

Sometimes I had a hiccup where I didn’t realize that I was making things awkward. 

Hilary Framke: Isn’t that such an interesting point of view from a DE&I, right? Usually from a female perspective, this is something that you would like people to make changes for you, right?

So that you can be accepted and be involved. But this is a different DE&I topic, where you’re used to being maybe a minority in manufacturing, or in this type of setting and workplace. I certainly experienced the same thing. Never ceased to amaze me how many executive meetings I’ve walked into. And I’m the only female here.

Kim Moore: Yes.

Hilary Framke: Still today, right? I have a recent example, right? And I’m the only female global leader in this room. You’re not used to, you get used to being that minority, right? In the type of work that we do. But in this case you were the one that needed to make adjustments.

Kim Moore: Yes. And I’ve had people say to me why would you make those adjustments? They should accept you the way you are. And I understand the truth behind that, but when you’re walking into a situation, you should understand the cultural norms. It wasn’t about me hiding the fact that I was a woman or trying to downplay the fact that I was a woman.

It was just being respectful of culture and that was important to me. 

Hilary Framke: So I’m sure across many industries, like myself, you have seen some interesting management systems. I’m sure both internal and external with ISO. So let’s chat. Let’s dig into this a little bit. Let’s first start with, have you seen both internal and external ISO and okay, great. Do you have a preference? on what type? 

Kim Moore: So I do. I want to preface that though, with the fact that ISO is a fantastic system and it’s globally recognized.

So I just can’t not emphasize that. But I do prefer internal and it’s mostly because an internal management system, and I’ve been involved with helping to write management systems. Internal, of course. But an internal management system can be tailored to your specific company’s risks, your industry’s hazards and you’ll find opportunities where you can also lighten the load on the people implementing the management system. And ISO, unfortunately you can’t change ISO. It’s established. 

Hilary Framke: All in, all out.

Kim Moore: Yeah, exactly. But with an internal system, you can say, you know what, we really, that’s very admin heavy. For what it gets you. And that’s not a tremendous risk or hazard in our industry. So we can leave that part out or we can go a different route with it. That’s less administratively complicated.

Hilary Framke: Absolutely. I feel industry by industry, right? There are differences. Some industries require it. Like it’s an established practice. We will be ISO certified. It’s a requirement for our customers to sell our products in certain areas, regions, et cetera, right?

So it’s not up for debate, right? And other industries, it doesn’t even exist. Like they have never heard of the ISO standards. They have no idea what the chapters are and the burden is. Isn’t that interesting? 

Kim Moore: It really is. I’m always shocked when people say I’m not sure what that is. And, I’ve met also a lot of EHS professionals that aren’t familiar with a management system in general, and it’s not that they’ve never worked in one. They’ve just never heard it. referred to in that manner. And to them, it was just the way they did their job, which is really the goal of any management system is to get it to the point that it’s just the way you do your job. But I have been surprised by that.

Hilary Framke: Yeah. And isn’t that the reason that ISO was created, right? I always like to use the example of Kazakhstan or something, right? Like where there isn’t a regulatory body who’s sitting down and saying, these are the requirements for an incident investigation. This is how I expect you to report what severity of injury requires reporting.

Here’s what you have to do for a lockout takeout programs or fall protection is required above this certain height, right? In the absence of a regulatory organization, ISO can help you set a standard for your business about all the different elements of your business. of how to do EHS at a certain level.

Kim Moore: Yes. And I like that it’s global. It’s not about, Germany’s regulations or the United States regulations or anything like that. It is a global management system and so far, every company I’ve worked for that’s had a management system approach, they’ve always made theirs global as well, because it’s more about the way you organize your programs and processes and the approach you have to EHS than it is about the regulations, which, Yeah, let’s face it can get a little dry. So it’s nice. 

Hilary Framke: Oh, no, absolutely. And it accounts for that, right? There’s a chapter on compliance obligations, right? And it’s putting together a register of what regulatory organizations you have to comply with and then how do you track them? How do you manage your compliance, rates and make sure you don’t miss anything.

So it is accounted for but as you said, it’s only one piece of the total bucket. I think non-EHS people, if you’re listening in, management systems are a huge amount of work. Huge. This is way further than compliance, right? This gets into, like, how you set your KPIs, right? What you do for management of change.

How you analyze your risk and, your risk and opportunities, your aspects and impacts. It’s, talk about a whole other language. 

Kim Moore: How do you engage your employees? What kind of meetings do you have and what topics are you covering? And how often are you having them? So it really is about how you’re rolling out your programs and processes, and yes, you are absolutely right.

Management systems always have that chapter or that piece around. You do also have to be compliant. But I’ve always appreciated the fact that whether I’m in the Middle East or in Germany or in Canada or in the States, the management system is always applicable. 

Hilary Framke: Yeah, because it’s that level up of generality, so it’s just assess your own, your sites, whether it’s local, state, regional federal, global and it’s internal and external, right?

So if your internal business says you will do this, are you compliant with that as well, right? 

Kim Moore: Yes. That’s such a big part of it. Are you compliant with the things that you have said you’re going to be compliant for, right? Your company has asked you to be compliant with these eight programs that go above and beyond, or maybe don’t have anything to do with regulations.

And are you doing what you say you’re going to do? And yeah I almost think of it as like a maturity plan, like a management system you’re never really done, they’re built on a continuous improvement model or at least the ones I’ve worked with have all been built on that continuous improvement model.

It’s not really about how close you are to the finish line, which so much in EHS ends up becoming about that finish line. But it’s about how much. 

Hilary Framke: That disappearing finish line, Kim. Yes. Because the minute you hit it, then it moves. It just moves. 

Kim Moore: Or it disappears completely and you’re wondering where it goes and it takes you six months to figure out where it moved to. Yes. 

Hilary Framke: I think the difference between external and internal management systems, right? When you have that external certification, you’re bound by compliance to that standard, and then having an external certifying body actually come and decide if you’ve interpreted that correctly.

And put you through, you can have individual certificates, you can have group certificates, right? There’s varying levels of auditing based on the differences and actually how you have to run your management system, which a lot of businesses underestimate here. Like you can’t be on a group certificate and then let every site do its own thing.

So that’s actually not allowed. I know why you did the group because then it’s less auditing. They only get audited like once every three years, right? So it’s less money. But you have to also change your management system to be more roll-up, group-oriented with a corporate expectation that comes downhill in order to qualify technically for that group certificate, right?

Kim Moore: Yes, and I think that’s another thing that I end up preferring about the internally created management systems is the auditing piece is so much easier in my opinion, it’s one thing it’s far less costly because you said it is expensive to get ISO certified and to maintain that certification and to maintain the audit schedule.

And ISO is really, they don’t audit. So it’s external auditors that have received ISO certification. Yes, exactly. So you’re always at the mercy of being able to find those people who can fit you in and get the audit. And then you’re paying a lot of money.

Whereas if you do build one internally, if that does work for your industry. You can decide what that audit schedule is and you can certify your own auditors and certainly that’s not free, but, hopefully it saves you some money. 

Hilary Framke: Yeah, and I think you can interpret the chapters in a way that works best for your business and not be held to, this is what an ISO auditor expects for an aspects and impact register.

Okay, we can still take the idea of aspects and impacts and create a nice simple risk profile analysis, right? I like to say, bucketized chemicals, right? Falls, ergonomics. Get a big picture, right? And assessment kind of site by site so that you can see big picture, the differences between the locations both the risks that’s present and then the controls that we have, the adjusted risk board, to see where we need to bolster. 

Kim Moore: And you’ve worked in it. It is very specific, which in some ways is very helpful. Like you were saying, it’s very specific about what you have to have but with an internal system, you could say, for instance if your site or your company has like an overarching EHS policy, maybe it’s a one-page policy that everyone has to be aware of it’s posted in all of your sites.

ISO may say, you must show me X, Y and Z training records for every employee having gone through the training to understand that policy. With an internal system, one thing we’ve done is tried to make it a little less administrative. It actually sets the bar a little bit higher. Because what you can do instead of that is say, I’m going to interview 10 percent of your population.

And if they can describe to me the policy and what the policy means and where it’s posted, you don’t have to show me their training records. I don’t need to see the roster. While it’s less administrative in some ways, that’s a higher bar to reach. 

Hilary Framke: It’s more impactful, right?

That actually gives you a true, that’s like a gemba walk. It gives you a true picture of our compliance, conformance, understanding. We don’t do enough. We could spend an entire podcast on training competence. And evaluating training competence because talk about something we never get to and businesses that are I commend you, continue with your efforts, right?

But I feel like this is not happening near enough, right? We’re sending it because like you said, it’s such an administrative burden just to get the trainings scheduled with the right content documented. We’re certainly not taking the extra step afterwards to go back out on the floor and say, Okay, you had lockout tagout training 30 days ago.

Why don’t you show me lockout tagout start to finish? Talk me through the process. Show me your energy-isolating devices. Talk me through your equipment. Talk me through the auditing process. Let’s make sure you took in everything that you were supposed to take in. 

Kim Moore: Exactly. And I think when you do hold your operations to that slightly higher bar, it does two things.

For one when you audit against an internal management system where maybe, yes, they can show you training records, but you still have to verify through interviews that these things occurred. And ISO has some aspects of that too. Quite a lot actually. But, it does two things. Your employees learn that they’re going to be audited and hopefully you have an auditor that isn’t terrifying and can approach people and have a good conversation.

But they learn that they’re going to be audited on something. So they pay a little bit more attention in trainings and it encourages the site to really take a hard look at their trainings and say, is this engaging and is it effective? Because if not, it’s not going to pass the bar for what I’m being held accountable to.

Hilary Framke: Do you know what’s also awesome about this that you just got me thinking about? When you have an internal system, your people can audit each other, right? Which improves the talent and risk awareness, control application, control exposure, right? Because there’s usually difference in controls between sites.

So it’s more of an investment back into your internal team, right? When it’s done by external auditors, they learn about us for three to four days, all the knowledge leaves with them. We haven’t made any investment in improving our talent overall. 

Kim Moore: That’s what we’re doing currently. So that is spot on Hilary.

And we’re just beginning our management system journey. But our plan and what we’re rolling it out is that operations will audit each other. And it’s great for every single reason you just listed plus best management practice sharing. It’s through the roof on that because they’re seeing it firsthand and they’re talking and they’re saying, Hey, if you need help with this requirement in the management system, go contact Sherry, she’s going to tell you how to do it.

It’s been great. 

Hilary Framke: Yeah. Like it was always shocking to me. I’m sure you had this too, where I’d be like, doing a gemba walks through a site and I’d see, a lift assist for a huge like paper roll. Yeah. And I’d be like, isn’t that so interesting, we have a lot of issues with manually lifting paper rolls over at this facility over just a couple of countries over.

That we’ve been talking about on calls. I think the last 60 days we’ve brought up this, you have this really bad incident. You have a back strain. I’m asking the group, anyone have a solution for this? And then here it is existing at one of my own locations.

Kim Moore: Yes.

Hilary Framke: And I immediately, of course, turn and deep-seated frustrations. I turn to the EHS person, why didn’t you bring this up? Why didn’t you take a picture. Why didn’t you send this to your colleague? But again, it’s so much information to take in, oftentimes, even just an EHS site leader doesn’t even know what all controls they have at their own facility.

They may have never seen that. It was in a back closet somewhere and someone just pulled it out and they just started using it again or something, right? 

There’s just, it’s so hard to manage all this change. The ability for your operations leaders to see the control application right across different, even departments, even intra site, right?

Intra site and inter site, you’re going to gain so much knowledge about your operational risk. 

Kim Moore: Yeah, if you never let your folks travel from site to site, and hopefully most industries have some opportunity to make sure that their folks have that ability to travel occasionally at least, they become, just I’ve been a site HSE manager for a long time in previous roles.

There were occasions where I became blind to a risk or to a hazard that I’ve walked past every single day that one of my co-workers in a different site would see. It sometimes is the same with controls. Doesn’t occur to me that site has no idea about this roll handler or roll lifter that they could be utilizing.

So it really does benefit having that fresh set of eyes to take a look at whether it’s hazards or controls a fresh set of eyes can just do wonders. 

Hilary Framke: I always dreamed of having, I hope that someone takes this idea and runs with it. I’m going to throw out some free advice to our EHS leaders.

Look, I’ve never found the time for it. But this was always a dream of mine. I wanted to have a control library. So I wanted to have the specific risk, right? Like ergonomics and then all the options of controls for ergonomics that were present in the business, right? This is the product. This is what site has it, this is what manufacturer makes it. This is what it does. Because there’s so many great best practices in a total business, but we don’t take the time to put together a repository of the controls so that when a EHS leader has runs into an incident investigation, these are the absolute controls or mitigating the control that’s not good enough.

They can go back to this repository and say, do I have the best of the best in the business? Oh, maybe we should try this and bolster our control and go up a level. 

Kim Moore: That’s such a great idea. I’m stealing it, Hilary. I’m writing.

Hilary Framke: I never got there. If you get there, I want to see it and we’re going to come back on podcast number two and we’re going to show it.

And this to me is huge, right? I think even just grading your controls into absolute and mitigating is a huge step forward, right? I would say many EHS leaders don’t even understand or know what the difference is there, right?

So even grading into categories is a big step up. But then taking that even further to say what’s present in our business? What are the best practice controls that we have against the risk profiles? Huge improvement in your program could really take you to the next level. 

Kim Moore: I agree. And honestly, even if your sites are different like our sites are, we have paper manufacturing locations that are a mill, and we have carton locations that take the paperboard and turn it into a carton. So clearly they’re very different. 

Hilary Framke: Yeah.

Kim Moore: But their risks. Can at least be similar, an ergonomic risk doing one process in a mill might be very similar to an ergonomic risk in a carton factory. So there’s a huge amount of capability there and possible future benefit for development.

Yeah. 

Hilary Framke: Yeah. And what a great activity to assign, right? As a project, he was site EHS leader for an individual development plan, right? That gives them an opportunity. They could travel. They could go to a couple sites. They could take pictures, right? They could build this out over the course of the year.

It helps them. I think this activity of matching risk to control is one of the most important proficiencies for EHS leaders, right? You have to know why is this present. What is the source risk that’s leading to the control being present, right? And if we can’t do the match, then maybe the control isn’t necessary, right?

There should be a match with each of the controls we have in place, right? And we don’t take the time to go dig in, deep dive into these things in the investigations and things like technology, right? Are helping us get there and helping us to optimize those assessments, and to see the bigger picture. But we’ve got a long way to go. 

Kim Moore: We do. This was always my struggle as a site manager too, with those assessments, remembering to go back and treat it as a living document. When you have an incident and you do an investigation. Are you going back and taking a look at those assessments and saying, did we get the controls, right?

Were those effective controls, did it actually reduce the risk or eliminate the hazard? We thought it did, maybe now it didn’t, now that we’ve seen this injury. And you have so many things on your plate and so many balls up in the air that sometimes it’s tough to juggle them all.

But I remember just always trying to remind myself, go back and look at the risk assessments make sure that we actually chose the correct controls because we make mistakes. We’re not infallible either. 

Hilary Framke: I’m going to do something I probably shouldn’t do because it’s not released yet, but it’s, I have to because it’s just right on topic.

So I had the opportunity with my role at SafetyStratus. I do some consulting. I had the opportunity with one of our clients. One of our clients came to me and said, I want to infuse HOP, human organizational performance, into our investigation process. I’d like to bolster our investigation form.

So they have our incident module, right? Which has an investigation section. I want to bolster it with some HOP principles, right? And look at all of these models and figure out how could we simplify down into some branching workflows and some questions that would help us to do this assessment.

Amazing idea. Of course, I was thrilled about it and I just mocked up a draft, which is going to go to dev actually right after this meeting, but we’re going to build this out, but it’s exactly what you just said, right? It’s inside the investigation. So we’ve just done the incident review, right?

We’ve just done all the incident details. We have all that incident reporting requirement for 301s, everything like that. Now getting into the investigation, actually creating energy categories.

There’s an energy wheel, so picking a high-energy category, then associating the high-energy category with controls that are either absolute or mitigating. So it’s got like this library, and you have to pick which ones were present for each of the high energy controls.

So it’s almost like a very quick assessment of your risk assessment.

So here’s the energy source. And then this is the control we said that was present at the time of the incident. Now, there’s questions about was that sufficient, right? Was it present? Was it t existent like it should have been? Because sometimes things aren’t where they should be.

They exist. But they weren’t there at the time of the incident for the employee to use. So questions about existence, questions about efficiency. You actually grade the controls at the end. Decide if that control is inadequate, moderate, or adequate. So that you can have some data extrapolation at the end of your incident report.

To say, were we happy with the control that has been chosen for this high energy? And then there’s even like a little section on human error traps and, different human error elements that come in.

Yeah, it’s very cutting-edge. I’ve certainly have never seen anything like it in EHS software, so we’re really excited about it here at SafetyStratus, but big shout out for our client who gave us all the content to make that possible. 

Kim Moore: Big shout out to your client as well. I can’t wait to see it.

That sounds awesome. 

Hilary Framke: It is going to be, but look, I think this is where EHS needs to go, right? And I bring it up shamelessly because I work for them, so I’m bias. But secondly, because this is what technology should do, right? Technology should automate. We need to go back to, we need to remember to go back to the risk assessment and to do this assessment.

I would say no. I would say you should have an incident management process. That automates that review for us, right? And it forces us through that workflow, so that we don’t have to remember. There’s just too much to remember, to go back and get. People ask me how can technology be applied?

And I think it’s just that it’s optimizing the analysis, the investigation, the assessment of the data collection repository, the following up on corrective actions, anything that’s data-oriented and requires some type of analysis, and review and documentation.

Technology should be applied to take us to the next level, right? Because we’re not robots. I can’t look at 30,000 pieces of data and be able to say what that means. This is where AI is really going to come in, right? Because AI will hopefully take us to that next level. And EHS, I dream of a day and we will make it happen, right?

Where a little button like bubble pops up and says, Have you noticed that incidents are up 30% in the warehouse department on second shift, in comparison to the last 30 days? And I’d be like, No, I didn’t notice that. Thank you for letting me know. Let’s look into that a little more, right?

And then you can click on that and dig down deeper. That’s really a place I hope AI takes us. 

Kim Moore: It’s like you’re reading my mind cause as you were talking about the system that you’re developing, I was thinking about, I just had a meeting two days ago or yesterday with an AI company about some of the innovations they can add to the safety world. And I was like, Ooh, I bet AI could help us with some of these things. And then that’s where you went. That would be a whole separate podcast talking about AI. 

Absolutely. And I would say I haven’t seen it yet. I don’t think that we’re there. Look, there’s a lot of things in development.

I just had a guest who was building an in-house AI system m for EHS. That is very interesting and cutting-edge. So pay attention to that when that comes out listeners. But look, I don’t know of anything on the market that’s doing that just yet, iterations of it, right? And certainly the start and we’re making a lot of progress, but again, still a long way to go with this AI.

And of course, it’s never a magic wand solution. It will always require good data in to get good data out. 

Hilary Framke: Oh, yes. If you have garbage going in, you’re going to have garbage coming out. 

Absolutely. 

Oh my gosh. Kim, I think we’re going to wrap here. We didn’t even get to so many of the questions.

It was just so interesting. You have such a unique perspective and thank you for your energy and everything that you do in EHS. It’s just so transformative and it was a serious pleasure to have you on the podcast. 

Kim Moore: I feel the same way, Hilary. You were very fun to talk to, and I could talk EHS all day. So you just let me know if you ever need me to join again. I have enjoyed myself. Thank you for having me, and this has been a great experience.